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You're listening to the Nonprofit Power Podcast.
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In today's episode, we share how to stay grounded in your messaging in stressful encounters with decision makers.
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So stay tuned.
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If you want to have real and powerful influence over the money and policy decisions that impact your organization and the people you serve, then you're in the right place.
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I'm Kath Patrick and I've helped dozens of progressive nonprofit leaders take their organizations to new and higher levels of impact and success by building powerful influence with the decision makers that matter.
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It is possible to get a critical mass of the money and policy decision makers in your world to be as invested in your success as you are.
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To have them seeking you out as an equal partner.
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And to have them Bringing opportunities and resources to you.
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This podcast will help you do just that.
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Welcome to the Nonprofit Power Podcast.
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Hey there folks.
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Welcome to the nonprofit power podcast.
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I'm your host, Kath Patrick.
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I'm so glad you're here for today's episode.
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We're going to take a look at a couple of the most common decision-maker behaviors that just tend to throw advocates off their game.
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And it definitely doesn't have to be that way, but I see it all the time.
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So I really want to get into that today.
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And give you a couple of things you can do to put yourself in a position where you're just rock solid and it doesn't matter what they throw at you.
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You're ready.
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And because you know you're ready, you're able to stay in your groove and be fully present.
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Which is where real engagement happens.
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There are two really common decision maker behaviors that most often throw advocates off their game.
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And those are the surprise questions.
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The questions you don't feel prepared to answer.
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And then the other one is when they challenge some aspect of what you're saying to them.
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Maybe they challenge your facts, whether it's the data on the scope of the problem or the scope of the need, or maybe your impact data or your data on the true cost of your services.
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That's a very common one.
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So these questions happen.
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You know this because you've probably encountered them.
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You've probably been caught off guard by more than one of them.
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There's a bunch of things that start happening when we let those surprise questions and challenges throw us off our game.
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It starts out fine.
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You've prepared your messaging.
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You know what you want to say.
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You're cruising along.
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And then they throw you a curve ball and you're like, oh God.
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Now what do I do?
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Or sometimes before they even say anything.
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You're thinking ahead, worrying about what they might say or do, which takes you out of the moment.
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And then your tone shifts and you start losing them because they can tell you're not fully present.
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And now you're worrying about how to get them back.
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The goal is to stay grounded in your messaging no matter what.
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We want to get you to the point, ultimately, where it doesn't make any difference.
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They can say whatever they want to say.
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They can ask whatever they want to ask.
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And not only are you ready, but you're calm and composed and focused and in your groove.
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And you're just focused on your mission and the reason that you came to talk to them.
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And nothing throws you off.
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That's the goal.
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And wherever you are now relative to that goal, is the space you have to work in.
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And that's beautiful because it doesn't matter.
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It doesn't matter where you are on the continuum of, this happens once in a while and you'd like to make sure it never happens.
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Or maybe you find yourself in this position more than you'd like.
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There may be a certain kind of decision-maker or a certain kind of setting or scenario that tends to unnerve you more than others.
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So not a problem.
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The first thing is to understand what those are.
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You've already noticed what tends to throw you off your game.
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Whether you've made notes about it or not.
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You've got some awareness around this.
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Part of what is valuable is to just explore that and dive into it a little bit.
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And we're going to do that today.
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We're also going to talk very specifically about some things you can do to make that go away, to make that be a rare occurrence.
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We want this to be a very rare situation that you are thrown off your game at all.
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And that if you are, even for a moment, that you recover quickly and that you're able to get right back in your groove and keep on going.
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So part of this process is about staying in your grounded self.
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And part of it is about having a ready comeback.
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And those two are actually related.
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Because part of what throws us off our game and makes us show up in kind of a tentative and not confident way, is if we're worrying about the thing that they might do that's gonna throw us off our game.
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And that is a completely self-defeating loop.
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But once you're in it, it can be really hard to get out of it.
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So the way you solve this is to get ready for it, to know that it's likely to happen and be ready.
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First of all, you can anticipate a lot of the questions that you're going to get from any given type of decision maker.
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You're going to be able to anticipate the kinds of challenges they might issue.
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So the first step is to identify those and get clear about it.
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What do we think they might ask?
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And of course, the more you know about the decision maker, the better position you're in to identify that stuff.
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If you've had conversations with them before, or if you've done your research on them and you understand basically where they're coming from and what their focus is.
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The more you know about their view of the problem you solve and the work that you do.
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And the more you know about their general worldview, about how things ought to be dealt with in the world.
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The more prepared you are to have the conversation.
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And we talk all the time.
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on lots of episodes about how you do that research and how you begin to amass that information.
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So we won't bother with that here.
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But the more you've done, the more you've researched, the better prepared you can be.
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But it's very helpful to just identify the likely questions you think they're going to ask.
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And one of the ways to do this, particularly if you are introducing anything new.
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Either that's a new piece of data that you have developed and it's new in the world.
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Or if you know it's going to be dramatically new to this decision maker.
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Then expect questions around that, right?
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That's actually, that's a good thing.
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One of the other things to realize is that questions aren't bad.
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Almost no questions are bad.
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They're always an opportunity to engage the decision-maker further.
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And sometimes they'll ask questions that feel like they're challenging you.
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And that is something of an art form and comes with practice.
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But simply understanding that, by and large, questions are helpful.
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Questions are your friend.
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If they're asking a question, they are engaging.
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Even if it's a hostile question, they're still engaging.
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Because the alternative is they're not asking anything.
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They're not commenting.
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They're not asking a question.
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They're tuned out and you never want that.
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You always want engagement.
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So don't be afraid of engagement that feels a little confronting, that feels a little challenging.
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Because it can be your friend.
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It absolutely can be your friend.
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It can be a huge opportunity.
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But it won't be an opportunity if you become a deer in the headlights when that happens.
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Or you retreat into yourself.
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And go, oh, well they must really not like what I'm saying.
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I better get out of here as fast as I can.
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Nope.
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You just lean right into that.
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Lean right into it.
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And when you do that, it tells them a couple of things.
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One, it tells them you're not scared of them.
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And that's really important.
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It helps you show up as a problem solving partner, as a peer.
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And it tells them you can hold your own.
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Which means that if they do decide to work with you, that then you're going to be a helpful partner in this process.
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You're not gonna be somebody who wimps out at the first sign of trouble.
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So that's all information they're assessing while they're asking you tough questions.
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So it's all good.
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Don't worry about it.
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Easier said than done, I know.
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So the first thing is you anticipate those questions as much as possible.
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Write them down.
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Write them down.
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Brainstorm with your team.
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The next thing you can do is you role play this.
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I know, I know, I'm hearing all of you in the back going, I hate role play.
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Role-plays annoying.
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Well, okay.
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But I will tell you that the only way you're going to get good at this is if you practice.
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And you have two ways you can practice.
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One of them is you can role play with your team in a safe space.
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Or you can wing it with an actual decision-maker in real time.
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And get your practice that way.
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I'm just saying, I wouldn't recommend the latter as your primary thing.
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Now of course you want to learn as much as possible every time you go out in a real life interaction with a decision maker.
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You're always going to be learning, always refining, always building your skills as you do that.
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But if you could take an opportunity to practice without the potential of screwing something up with a decision maker.
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And have a place where you can comfortably make some mistakes, try out some different ways of responding.
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And see how it feels before you have to do it in real life.
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Um, why would you not take that opportunity?
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Of course you would.
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Right?
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So, whatever you think about role-play in other contexts, I'm telling you it's one of the most valuable things you can do in this context.
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And I do it all the time.
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All the time.
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And I have my clients do it all the time.
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Because it works.
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It works really well.
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So take those questions and have somebody on your team who's temperamentally suited to do that, to ask you those tough, challenging questions and workshop some responses.
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Now, of course you can also plan specific messaging that responds to those questions and challenges that you anticipate a decision-maker posing.
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And sometimes a question will feel like a challenge, but it might not be.
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Questions like well, that doesn't make sense to me.
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Where did you get that data?
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Help me understand how you even came to that conclusion.
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But it's legit.
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I ask questions like that all the time and I'm not intending to be confronting.
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I'm just like, I want to understand, but this isn't clicking for me.
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I'm not seeing the logic flow of how you got there.
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Walk me through it, please.
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So you can have messaging that responds to those kinds of questions slash challenges.
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And there are different rhetorical devices for doing that depending on whether you have solid reason to believe that this is a hostile question or challenge, or whether it is a genuine desire to understand.
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If you're not sure, always act like it's a desire to understand.
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And it is actually an effective rhetorical device.
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Even when someone is issuing a hostile question or challenge, to treat it as if it is a genuine desire for information.
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That is a very powerful technique that can disarm them.
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That may at least drop them down a few levels of hostility because they don't know what to do with it.
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This is rare, by the way.
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But if it happens, and a lot of people worry about this, they worry well, but what if they're hostile?
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What if they, ah, you know, are mean to me, basically.
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And.
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So, okay.
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Whatever.
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And we'll talk about how you get to an attitude of whatever in a little bit.
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But it can be very effective to just go, oh, that's such a great question.
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Let me walk you through that.
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And then you walk them through it the same way you would walk through someone who's asking genuinely for information and has a genuine desire to understand.
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That's a very effective technique and I highly recommended.
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It also means you don't have to have as many responses in your hip pocket.
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You can also turn the question back on them.
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And say, well, I'm not sure what information you're trying to get at.
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Help me understand your question a little better.
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Again, if it's hostile, it deescalates them.
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If it's genuinely a desire to understand, they may not have realized that their question wasn't terribly clear and you can help them get clearer.
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As long as you're coming to this with the constant frame of, let's help them understand.
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Once they get it they're going to be on our side.
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How could they not be?
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That's really the frame of mind you want to come into all of these conversations with.
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So those are some techniques that you can employ to prepare, to get ready, to practice.
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To build your skillset.
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But absolutely understand that they are skills.
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And you have to practice them to get good at using them under duress.
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You're building skills.
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You're also building kind of mental muscle memory around this.
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You're building neural pathways.
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And so just like when you practice a baseball swing or a basketball shot or a musical piece.
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You're training your muscles in those case, and your eye, hand coordination.
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You're training all of that to do the thing, to perform the skill, without thinking.
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When you practice all these messaging and advocacy skills, you're doing the same thing.
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Only instead of a physical thing, much of this skill is mental.
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You're developing all of that so that it is available to you without effort, when you really need it.
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And practice is absolutely the key.
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In my coaching programs, what we do is we practice all this in groups.
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And then I also provide coaching to help folks refine their messaging and continuously improve that.
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But you can do a lot on your own with your team.
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And I really recommend that you do.
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The other part of what you want to role play and train yourself around, is simply the exposure to the challenging, questioning behavior of decision makers.
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Because what happens with repeat exposure is you begin to get desensitized to it.
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It is no longer a source of worry.
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It's just a fact of life.
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And you get to where you're like, yeah.
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Yeah, that happens.
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Okay.
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Oh, we're doing that today.
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Alright fine.
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Okay.
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Wish we weren't, but okay.
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Whatever I got this.
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And you only get to that with repeat exposure.
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Now there's some more ingredients to getting to that chill place where you're cool with whatever they throw at you.
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The biggest thing is.
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Whatever it is about this challenging, questioning aggressiveness, whatever it is from a decision maker.
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Whatever aspects of that, and there could be a bunch.
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Whatever about that scares you the most is the thing to lean into the most and practice the most.
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I'll tell you what does not work.
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Is to practice the messaging without dealing with the stuff that scares you..
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You figure out, okay, we got our answers.
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We figured out what their questions are going to be, how they might challenge our data, or whatever.
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And I got my responses all ready and I role played them and that's cool.
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It's great if you've prepared the messaging.
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But if you haven't also done the internal work that is required for you to maintain calm and centered and composed.
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It won't be enough.
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That messaging will just fly right out of your head.
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If you haven't also trained yourself to just keep an even keel.
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We have to do both.
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And one of the very helpful techniques for helping you reduce the freak-out factor.
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Is simply repeat exposure.
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And again, if you could do that repeat exposure in a relatively safe space, all to the better.
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And if there's something that triggers a strong reaction in you, have that team member start out at the low end of the scale.
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And they can work up in intensity as you begin to get repeat exposure and get more comfortable handling that energy coming at you.
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But you do have to do the role-play.
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There's really just no other way around it.
00:16:34.575 --> 00:16:37.875
Other than live practice with decision-makers, which not a good plan.
00:16:38.524 --> 00:16:41.225
And really lean into the stuff that scares you the most.
00:16:41.294 --> 00:16:48.195
Incrementally if needed, but ultimately have your team challenge the hell out of you because that's how we get good at this.
00:16:48.871 --> 00:16:54.991
When we get to the point where we can handle that energy coming at us that feels confronting, that feels potentially hostile.
00:16:54.991 --> 00:16:56.221
That feels intimidating.
00:16:56.581 --> 00:16:58.142
All those things.
00:16:58.638 --> 00:17:00.827
We have to be able to stand in our power.
00:17:01.187 --> 00:17:04.488
And be like, okay, well, let me just talk to you about that.
00:17:05.087 --> 00:17:05.597
Here we go.
00:17:06.548 --> 00:17:15.961
So the last piece to this is, you also have to identify why it is that whichever the stuff is that scares you, why it scares you.
00:17:16.605 --> 00:17:18.555
And why it scares you as much as it does.
00:17:19.234 --> 00:17:25.275
Generally speaking there are likely to be one or more beliefs lurking around somewhere in the background.
00:17:26.144 --> 00:17:27.734
About what it will mean.
00:17:28.184 --> 00:17:31.664
What it means if the decision maker is challenging you in a certain way.
00:17:32.375 --> 00:17:36.644
And beliefs about what it will mean if you don't respond perfectly.
00:17:37.357 --> 00:17:40.288
So those are two sides of the same coin there.
00:17:40.708 --> 00:17:46.028
It is very common for folks to have some beliefs around both of those pieces.
00:17:46.674 --> 00:17:48.265
What does it mean that they're challenging you?
00:17:48.825 --> 00:17:50.384
Are they challenging my integrity?
00:17:50.454 --> 00:17:51.654
Are they saying I'm a liar?
00:17:51.875 --> 00:17:53.755
Are they saying I don't know what I'm talking about?
00:17:54.365 --> 00:17:55.505
Are they disrespecting me?
00:17:55.535 --> 00:17:56.765
Are they, what are they doing?
00:17:56.765 --> 00:17:57.694
What does this mean?
00:17:57.694 --> 00:17:58.654
It means something.
00:17:58.894 --> 00:18:01.234
It means something about me and it means something bad.
00:18:01.315 --> 00:18:04.105
And then you get all up in your emotions about that.
00:18:04.884 --> 00:18:09.565
And you are in reactive mode to whatever that stuff is.
00:18:10.087 --> 00:18:12.357
And that definitely will not help you.
00:18:13.102 --> 00:18:18.021
And then there's the, what does it mean about me that I didn't respond perfectly?
00:18:18.561 --> 00:18:20.301
Oh, God, you know, I.
00:18:20.301 --> 00:18:21.801
I wasn't fast enough on my feet.
00:18:21.862 --> 00:18:23.692
I let the organization down.
00:18:23.692 --> 00:18:24.412
I blew it.
00:18:24.442 --> 00:18:26.902
I, I didn't get what I came here to get.
00:18:26.942 --> 00:18:27.662
oh, no.
00:18:27.662 --> 00:18:33.211
I don't know if I'll get another chance and, oh man, now they really think I don't know what I'm talking about, cause I didn't have a good answer.
00:18:33.491 --> 00:18:35.832
You know, I embarrassed myself in front of my colleagues, whatever.
00:18:35.832 --> 00:18:38.521
All this stuff, all the yammering in your head.
00:18:39.051 --> 00:18:40.731
Those are all just beliefs.
00:18:41.261 --> 00:18:42.221
They're not facts.
00:18:42.775 --> 00:18:43.494
They're beliefs.
00:18:44.327 --> 00:18:52.392
The problem with beliefs is that if we've repeated them to ourselves enough, our subconscious interprets them as fact.
00:18:53.075 --> 00:18:54.454
And that is messed up.
00:18:55.144 --> 00:18:56.255
So we got to un-mess that.
00:18:57.375 --> 00:19:00.914
Very simply, the remedy for all of those beliefs.
00:19:01.484 --> 00:19:03.285
Is to first of all, identify them.
00:19:03.734 --> 00:19:06.315
And that, that can be kind of uncomfortable.
00:19:06.951 --> 00:19:10.102
So this may be an exercise you do by yourself.
00:19:10.557 --> 00:19:18.367
If you have people on your team that you really trust and feel comfortable being a little bit emotionally vulnerable with them, then you can share.
00:19:19.208 --> 00:19:20.678
It's ideal if you can do that.
00:19:21.528 --> 00:19:25.847
But if you don't feel comfortable with that, and first you just need to dig around in those beliefs on your own.
00:19:25.847 --> 00:19:26.778
That's totally cool.
00:19:27.167 --> 00:19:28.008
Whatever works for you.
00:19:28.637 --> 00:19:29.807
But you got to identify them.
00:19:29.807 --> 00:19:32.178
You got to dig in there and find out what's going on.
00:19:32.667 --> 00:19:33.897
What do I think that will mean?
00:19:34.605 --> 00:19:35.565
And just write it all down.
00:19:36.045 --> 00:19:36.674
Write it all down.
00:19:36.674 --> 00:19:37.214
No judgment.
00:19:37.214 --> 00:19:37.664
Just write.
00:19:37.875 --> 00:19:40.298
Don't stop to think about it, don't stop to judge it.
00:19:40.298 --> 00:19:40.958
Just write it down.
00:19:41.137 --> 00:19:41.708
What will it mean?
00:19:41.768 --> 00:19:45.928
What does it mean when they confront me, when they challenge me, when they act like that.
00:19:46.587 --> 00:19:49.347
And then what does it mean if I don't have the perfect comeback?
00:19:49.498 --> 00:19:52.587
What does it mean if I don't get my messaging exactly right in that situation.
00:19:52.587 --> 00:19:55.798
Or if I don't stand up to them the way I want to, what does all that mean?
00:19:56.565 --> 00:19:57.704
And then you take a look at those.
00:19:58.342 --> 00:20:00.021
And for every one that's on there.
00:20:00.491 --> 00:20:04.597
If you have a really long list, pick the ones that are flashing red.
00:20:05.147 --> 00:20:06.917
Because they're the ones that are your biggest problems.
00:20:07.515 --> 00:20:10.644
Also, if you've got a dozen things on there, they're probably group-able.
00:20:10.664 --> 00:20:14.355
You probably could put them in groups of maybe three or four topics, but whatever.
00:20:14.494 --> 00:20:19.798
Either group them or pick the ones that are flashing red, that feel the most scarily true to you.
00:20:20.644 --> 00:20:21.515
And then here's what you do.
00:20:22.021 --> 00:20:24.301
You put those beliefs on trial.
00:20:24.422 --> 00:20:25.471
You prosecute them.
00:20:26.025 --> 00:20:28.184
And you start by saying, is that really true?
00:20:28.755 --> 00:20:32.448
So let's say one of your beliefs is, they think I'm unqualified.
00:20:32.448 --> 00:20:34.758
They think I don't know what I'm talking about.
00:20:35.285 --> 00:20:36.454
They think I'm lying.
00:20:37.147 --> 00:20:37.538
Okay.
00:20:38.137 --> 00:20:39.817
Do I know what I'm talking about?
00:20:39.847 --> 00:20:41.317
Yeah, I do actually.
00:20:42.278 --> 00:20:43.238
Am I incompetent?
00:20:43.268 --> 00:20:43.597
No.
00:20:43.627 --> 00:20:44.498
I know I'm competent.
00:20:44.498 --> 00:20:45.607
I know what I'm talking about.
00:20:45.817 --> 00:20:48.367
And I'm really proud of this data, actually, that we just developed.
00:20:48.998 --> 00:20:49.958
Okay, great.
00:20:50.018 --> 00:20:51.067
Write that down.
00:20:51.494 --> 00:20:53.701
Write down what's actually true.
00:20:54.541 --> 00:20:56.652
Oh, they think I don't know what I'm talking about.
00:20:57.174 --> 00:20:58.365
Well, I don't know.
00:20:58.505 --> 00:20:59.315
I don't know what they think.
00:20:59.345 --> 00:20:59.914
Neither do you.
00:21:00.815 --> 00:21:03.884
So the kernel in there is, do you know what you're talking about?
00:21:04.894 --> 00:21:06.305
We're not worrying about what they think right now.
00:21:06.305 --> 00:21:07.535
We're just worried about what's true.
00:21:08.164 --> 00:21:09.484
Do you know what you're talking about?
00:21:09.815 --> 00:21:10.355
Yes?
00:21:10.654 --> 00:21:10.954
Okay.
00:21:10.954 --> 00:21:11.404
Great.
00:21:11.765 --> 00:21:13.535
Write down what is actually true.
00:21:13.605 --> 00:21:16.815
What specifically do you know what you're talking about.
00:21:17.325 --> 00:21:19.454
Like, what are you an expert at?
00:21:19.454 --> 00:21:24.255
What are you so solidly grounded in your facts that you know that you are rock solid?
00:21:24.795 --> 00:21:25.545
Write it down.
00:21:26.152 --> 00:21:27.981
And you just do this with every one of them.
00:21:28.654 --> 00:21:29.525
Cause you know what?
00:21:29.555 --> 00:21:30.575
They're just beliefs.
00:21:30.575 --> 00:21:31.744
They're not facts.
00:21:31.805 --> 00:21:35.075
So what we have to do is challenge those beliefs.
00:21:35.194 --> 00:21:39.875
Prosecute them, interrogate them, and surface what is actually true.
00:21:40.428 --> 00:21:43.607
And then ground yourself in what is actually true.
00:21:44.498 --> 00:21:46.117
That's fundamentally what you need to do.
00:21:46.704 --> 00:21:53.075
And then you need to make sure that you are repeating to yourself what is actually true, 99% of the time.
00:21:53.664 --> 00:22:00.275
And any time one of those little doubts, unhelpful beliefs pops up its little head.
00:22:00.694 --> 00:22:01.444
Because they will.
00:22:01.994 --> 00:22:06.664
They won't just go away just because you replaced them with a new truth on your pad of paper.
00:22:07.535 --> 00:22:09.875
They'll pop their little heads up repeatedly.
00:22:10.744 --> 00:22:15.255
And you got to play whack-a-mole with those little suckers and tell them, Nope, that's not true.
00:22:15.345 --> 00:22:16.634
What is true is...
00:22:16.634 --> 00:22:18.275
And then you say what is true.
00:22:18.914 --> 00:22:21.615
And it is most productive if you say it out loud.
00:22:22.218 --> 00:22:25.097
Writing it down is very powerful and that's a really good start.
00:22:25.458 --> 00:22:31.008
But for reinforcement, saying it out loud on a regular basis is incredibly helpful.
00:22:31.634 --> 00:22:36.567
I know it depending on whether you're used to doing this, that can all sound a little woo woo, airy fairy.
00:22:37.057 --> 00:22:37.357
Nope.
00:22:37.387 --> 00:22:38.438
It's brain science.
00:22:39.008 --> 00:22:42.551
And what you are doing is you are training your subconscious.
00:22:42.551 --> 00:22:49.741
You are training your reticular activating system, whose job it is to automate as much as possible to give your thinking brain a break.
00:22:50.321 --> 00:22:58.694
If you repeat something often enough, just like you repeated those unhelpful beliefs until they became fact in your reticular activating systems little repository.
00:22:59.095 --> 00:23:04.897
You're going to train the RAS into something new, with a replacement belief that serves you far better.
00:23:05.748 --> 00:23:09.137
That is an incredibly helpful addition to this process.
00:23:09.607 --> 00:23:10.928
I regard it as essential.
00:23:11.567 --> 00:23:13.157
It is not easy work.
00:23:13.188 --> 00:23:17.857
This can be very challenging, very confronting to enter into this work.
00:23:18.337 --> 00:23:21.307
But I recommend you at least stick a toe in that water.
00:23:22.238 --> 00:23:33.865
And work on, like I say, the one or two of the most problematic, flashing red things that you tend to make it mean when a decision-maker challenges you.
00:23:34.394 --> 00:23:36.429
What does it mean about you?
00:23:36.878 --> 00:23:42.972
And then you replace those super unhelpful beliefs with ones that are actually true.
00:23:43.776 --> 00:23:48.303
All of these strategies and practices are in service of one thing.
00:23:48.752 --> 00:24:02.625
Which is building a skillset and a mindset that are going to be bedrock underpinning that will allow you to remain your calm, composed, focused, mission-driven self.
00:24:03.316 --> 00:24:07.635
When you are in any encounter with any decision maker, no matter what they throw at you.
00:24:08.209 --> 00:24:10.759
Because you're grounded in knowing.
00:24:10.909 --> 00:24:13.878
In absolutely knowing that you've got this.
00:24:14.762 --> 00:24:15.692
Thanks for listening.
00:24:15.962 --> 00:24:19.742
And I'll see you in the next episode right here on the Nonprofit Power Podcast.
