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You're listening to the Nonprofit Power Podcast.
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In today's episode, we reveal how right-wing messaging is damaging to your Nonprofit.
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And how you can counter it.
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So stay tuned.
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If you want to have real and powerful influence over the money and policy decisions that impact your organization and the people you serve, then you're in the right place.
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I'm Kath Patrick and I've helped dozens of progressive nonprofit leaders take their organizations to new and higher levels of impact and success by building powerful influence with the decision makers that matter.
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It is possible to get a critical mass of the money and policy decision makers in your world to be as invested in your success as you are.
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To have them seeking you out as an equal partner.
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And to have them Bringing opportunities and resources to you.
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This podcast will help you do just that.
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Welcome to the Nonprofit Power Podcast.
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Hey there folks.
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Welcome to the Nonprofit Power Podcast.
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I'm so glad you're here for today's episode.
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The right wing is generating and amplifying a lot of fear-driven demonizing messaging that is driving polarization.
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And for many of the purveyors of this messaging, polarization is part of the point.
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It's one of the strategic objectives.
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It can be very tempting as a nonprofit leader to say that doesn't have anything to do with us.
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We're a nonpartisan organization, that's all political stuff and it doesn't affect us.
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But the fact is it does affect all of us in a number of significant ways.
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And if we don't counter it, it could do lasting harm to the work that we do, the people we serve and our ability to build support for that work.
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Hey, everybody.
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Welcome to the Nonprofit Power podcast.
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I'm your host, Kath Patrick.
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All that polarizing toxic messaging coming from the right is exhausting.
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But we ignore it at our peril, because it's part of a strategy to achieve a broader set of goals.
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That, if achieved, could spell serious trouble for non-profits and the people we serve.
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One of the unifying theories of the right is that government should not be used to solve problems.
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Taxation should be minimal.
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And primarily used for defense spending.
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If they had their way, all social safety net programs would be eliminated.
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The problem they face is that when people are given the opportunity to view most safety net programs and services in a neutral context, most are inclined to support them.
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That does not serve the political interests of the right wing.
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So to reduce that support, they have hit upon a very effective strategy, which is to drive as many wedges between people as possible.
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Thus fragmenting potential support for things that benefit society and the most disadvantaged.
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And they have a messaging strategy to achieve this.
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The messaging is out there.
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You know it's out there, you encounter it every day.
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But it may be tempting to say that as offensive as that is, as troubling as that is, it doesn't affect us as a Nonprofit.
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Because we're nonpartisan and we're not involved in all that.
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But the fact is if we allow that messaging to go unchallenged, we run the risk that increasingly decision-makers will be swayed by the pervasive and unrelenting drumbeat of messaging from the right.
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So part of your messaging strategy needs to include uh, strategic counter messaging to that.
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The simplest way to do that is to take your four main advocacy messaging components that we talk about all the time on the podcast.
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And within each of them ask the question: What damaging and untrue messaging is out there in the messaging ecosystem that undermines this point?
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We'll start there.
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And then after that, we'll talk about how to craft your counter messaging.
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So as you know, the first element is basically about the work you do and who you serve.
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And we need to look at both pieces.
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Depending on the work that you do, one or both of these could be impacted.
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If the services you provide are free of charge to the recipients, and those services are also supported in any way by government dollars.
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There are two possible issues right there.
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There's a lot of right-wing messaging that is centered around how unfair it is that some people get stuff for nothing while hardworking other people don't get those same goodies.
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And that becomes magnified if tax dollars are being used to provide those free things for some people and not others.
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Remember that one of the core strategies of the right is to drive as many wedges as possible.
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In this case, it's aimed at getting otherwise kind and caring people to become resentful that their hard work is being ignored while someone else is getting help for free.
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The other piece, of course, is the who you serve part.
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If you serve low-income people in general, there is a certain amount of messaging simply demonizing low income people.
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Perpetuating tropes that they're lazy.
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They don't want to work.
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If they had enough ambition and enough gumption, they wouldn't have these problems.
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They would make do for themselves.
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All that messaging is designed to create a belief.
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That number one, the people receiving the help are undeserving.
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And number two, that it's not fair that some people get free stuff while other people have to quote, work for it.
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Unquote.
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Unquote.
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The messaging is being used to drive a wedge between people who would typically be sympathetic to someone who is struggling, and those who are struggling.
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The goal is to undermine that sympathetic impulse.
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Sometimes as we well know, the demonizing messaging is centered on identity.
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And that's where things get really ugly.
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It could be about race.
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It could be about gender, could be immigration status, or any number of other things.
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You are no doubt, acutely aware of what kinds of identity focused demonization is directed at the particular people that you serve.
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And again, the purpose of othering and demonizing people is to make it easier to drive the wedges.
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If those people aren't like us, then it's easier to believe they don't share our virtues, our moral underpinnings, our humanity.
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And then it's easier to view them with suspicion rather than empathy.
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The ultimate goal of dismantling the social safety net cannot happen as long as people actually believe that that's a good thing and that people need it and that we should be doing that.
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That's part of what we do for one another, as a country, as a society.
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And it's a good use of tax dollars.
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So they need a way.
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And driving a wedge is the most effective way they've found, and you see it happen every day.
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You see the effects of the extreme polarization that's the result of the persistent, constant driving of wedges, every place they can.
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So that was a rather lengthy exploration into how this kind of thing works.
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How right wing messaging has potential damage capacity for the core issue of the work you do and the people you serve.
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The second core element for your advocacy messaging is around the problem you solve.
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In that context, there are basically three main messaging angles for the right wing.
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And these are in no particular order and they can come in whatever combination.
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The cause of the problem is a moral failing on the part of the individual.
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Therefore it should be the responsibility of the individual to solve it.
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There is no acknowledgement whatsoever that any of the problems that we all solve as nonprofits.
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That any of them were created by bad policy, or by failure to act on the part of government or other entities that should be taking responsibility.
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None of that is there.
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Again, the quest is always for messaging that will resonate and that will help drive a wedge.
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So the messaging tends to be around pinning the cause of the problem on the person.
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There's something wrong with them.
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And then backing that up is if government or society has a role in solving the problem, it's to push people toward taking responsibility for fixing their own problems.
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And sometimes penalizing them, if they don't.
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And the last refuge is, the problem is unsolvable.
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It's too big or whatever.
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Homelessness is often dumped in this pile.
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It's too big to solve.
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Therefore, why try.
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These are the categorical types of messaging.
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They will take different forms depending on the kind of work you do.
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Whether you're in workforce development or healthcare, nutrition, housing, behavioral health, whatever it is that you do.
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These will be the core themes, but there will be variations on these themes that will show up in how damaging messaging is being put out there that is going to cause problems for you.
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Okay, then let's look at the third element, which is your unique solution to the problem.
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Now, obviously, because it's about your unique solution to the problem, this is going to be somewhat unique to you.
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Right.
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There may or may not be a lot of damaging messaging out there that is specific to your solution.
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But there may be.
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And there is at a minimum, probably a lack of understanding, which allows damaging messaging to get greater traction.
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If you do any kind of a tailored client centered approach, there may very well be messaging out there about that being inefficient and unnecessarily costly.
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If your solution involves giving wraparound support, there's likely messaging about the unfairness of giving people all that help for free, when others had to work for it.
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So you see some recurring themes here.
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And lastly, the problem isn't as complicated as you say it is.
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That's a great one.
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Why do you have this complicated service structure?
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It's not a complicated problem.
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And therefore your multifaceted solution is unnecessary and wasteful.
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And then the last element of your advocacy messaging centers around the impact that your unique solution has, how it makes a difference in people's lives, and for the community.
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Damaging messaging around this tends to center on one of two things.
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It costs too much.
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Whatever it costs is too much.
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And government money shouldn't be involved in any way in the first place.
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These are themes and categories of the types of damaging messaging that we consistently see coming from the right.
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That has the potential to be very damaging to nonprofits and their quest for support from all kinds of decision makers, whether it's elected officials, government agency people, corporate support, foundations, contracting partners, any of them.
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The problem with the right-wing messaging machine is that it is constant.
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It's pervasive.
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It's permeating all sorts of things that go way beyond electoral politics.
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And it's seeping into everybody's world.
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So if we let all that hang out there without countering it, we have a problem.
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Because when it's not countered, over time, it starts to have an effect.
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It starts to change people's perspective.
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It starts to change decision makers perspectives.
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So we have to be there countering that with messaging of our own.
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And the simplest way to do that is just build it into everything.
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So that we are creating our own constant drum beat of accurate information that is shaping perceptions in ways that restore what should be there as a given.
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That help to restore a common understanding that everyone struggles from time to time.
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And as part of the human community, what we do is we lift each other up and we support and help one another when we need it.
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I don't know anyone who works in the nonprofit world who doesn't believe that.
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Who didn't get into this work precisely because we believe it.
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And left unplugged from that constant right-wing messaging, that's what most people believe.
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You know, there's always been a small subset of people who are just kind of angry and resentful and mad at the world.
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And those folks have always had trouble seeing the whole love thy neighbor, help thy neighbor thing.
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But for the most part, most people who are well-functioning and participating in the community and being part of the human community.
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Most folks are naturally inclined to want to help others.
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So it takes a lot of work to drive enough wedges to start to damage that, but we are seeing it happen.
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And so not only for our own survival as non-profits and to make sure that the people we serve get what they need.
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But also as members of the human community, it's on us to help.
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We are uniquely positioned as nonprofit leaders because we are so close to the real and difficult problems in society.
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We see the impact that the problems have on people's lives.
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We see the incredibly powerful difference that it makes when they are helped in a way that is actually helpful.
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And that helps them move toward thriving.
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And we understand the value of that, not only to that person, but to their family and to the community at large, to society as a whole.
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We get all that.
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And because we are up close and personal with it every day, we are uniquely equipped to be the ones who are leading the charge to counter the messaging that says that's all wrong.
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The good news is it's not going to take a lot of extra work, if your advocacy messaging around these four elements is already well-developed.
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So where you want to start is to review your existing messaging and identify the places where you don't currently have a strong counter message to the damaging messages that you've identified.
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And then you get to work, developing additional messaging, designed to counter that.
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And we're going to talk through some details about that in just a second, but first I want to call out a thing you don't want to do.
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We don't want to operate from a place of defensiveness.
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We don't want to be in the position of having to respond to right-wing messaging directly and say, oh, that's not true.
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What's really true is.
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dot.dot.
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Because then you've allowed that damaging messaging to become the main character in the conversation.
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And you're stuck trying to reframe things.
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That's not how you do effective messaging.
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How you do effective messaging is you own the narrative.
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You decide what the narrative is going to be, and you put that forward.
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And the way you do that strategically to counter the damaging messaging, is you build your counters into your positively framed messaging.
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Now, if you're confronted by a decision maker who says something direct from right-wing talking points, then obviously you will directly counter that in that moment.
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But your overall messaging should be designed to weave in your counter messaging.
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In totally positive framing without ever mentioning what the other side's got to say.
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And I have a particular caution around a commonly used messaging tool that really needs to be rethought.
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Studies have been done to show that a myths and facts messaging set up primarily serves to reinforce the myths.
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Oops.
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All you've done is given one more repetition to the wrong information.
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So don't do that.
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I.
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Don't give even more of a megaphone to the already wrong and polarizing rhetoric by saying here is the myth, but here's the real fact.
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Instead simply go straight to what is true, while structuring that to counter the thing that is wrong.
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So let's talk a little bit about what that might look like.
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Cause that sounds simple and kind of confusing at the same time.
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Right?
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So let's go back to what we do and who we serve.
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One of the most important things that we can do with our messaging is to constantly remind everyone what the reality of the people we serve actually looks like.
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What their struggles are and how similar those struggles are to the struggles of every person.
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There's far more that is common about the human experience than is different.
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And one of the things that's great about nonprofit leaders is that we're always seeking connection.
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We're always looking for ways to help people understand and to bring them in.
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And this is a great place to be applying that skill is in your messaging.
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When you talk about the people you serve it's particularly important to not just give descriptions of characteristics.
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Like, we serve low income people who have one or more chronic conditions, and are in danger of repeat hospitalizations because of that.
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Okay.
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That is very descriptive.
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But it doesn't tell your audience anything about what that person's life is like.
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You might put that kind of language in a grant writing proposal.
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But when you're putting your advocacy messaging out there, you want to make sure you're including also a description of what the person's life is like.
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You'd think that most people would say, oh, my gosh, if you have multiple chronic diseases, that must be really difficult.
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And they probably have more than one person in their own family who may have more than one chronic disease and know how difficult it is.
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But that doesn't stop there being damaging messaging that blames the person with the condition.
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There is always going to be messaging that is victim blaming.
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That is saying that the problem is the person's fault.
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And so you want to make sure that you're describing what their life is like.
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Why they experienced the problem.
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What's been going on in their life.
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What is the impact of having that problem.
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And sometimes it's helpful to explain why they are economically distressed.
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Often, part of the reason they're economically distressed is connected to the other thing you're helping them with.
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If you're in workforce development, it's connected to their wage earning capacity, which is connected to a bunch of other things.
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Possibly a series of challenges that they're experiencing in their life.
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Whenever you're talking about who you serve, you are inevitably going to be also talking about the problem they're experiencing, which is connected to the problem that you solve.
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And so if the instinct is to blame the person for the problem, and to say that they should just bootstrap their way out of whatever it is.
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You need counter messaging for that as well.
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And you don't wait for someone to hand you the damaging messaging before you bring out your counter messaging.
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This is the critical point I want to get across, that you build in your counter messaging to all of your advocacy messaging.
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So that you have countered it before anyone has a chance to even say it.
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And the way you do that, when you're describing the problem, is you explain how the problem came to be.
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Why the person experiences these problems.
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Why a particular group of people experience this problem, perhaps in greater proportion than others.
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And the links between economic distress and all the other things that we help with.
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So to be able to say, with the healthcare example, let's say.
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That a common scenario is a person who is dealing with uncontrolled diabetes and hypertension, at a minimum.
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And they're in danger of developing kidney disease.
00:19:28.548 --> 00:19:35.647
So, first of all, unless you're talking to a healthcare audience, don't assume that your average decision maker has the faintest idea that these things are connected.
00:19:36.397 --> 00:19:39.188
So you have messaging built in that explains how they're connected.
00:19:39.778 --> 00:19:41.367
And it can be just a sentence or two.
00:19:41.788 --> 00:19:49.674
And you can always say, as you probably know, So that you're giving them the benefit of the doubt that they already know these things, but you're just helping them remember and have some context.
00:19:50.244 --> 00:19:56.991
As you probably know, folks with uncontrolled diabetes often have hypertension as a coexisting condition.
00:19:57.567 --> 00:19:58.857
And here's how they're connected.
00:19:59.387 --> 00:20:04.847
And then the kicker is that hypertension then becomes a risk factor for kidney disease.
00:20:05.182 --> 00:20:07.278
So these problems start cascading.
00:20:07.337 --> 00:20:12.817
And until you get the diabetes under control, the person is at greater and greater risk of very serious health issues.
00:20:12.847 --> 00:20:14.407
Repeat hospitalizations.
00:20:14.857 --> 00:20:17.884
And so that has all kinds of bad things attached to it.
00:20:18.414 --> 00:20:19.765
Imagine if you're this person.
00:20:20.321 --> 00:20:22.392
First of all, you feel crummy most of the time.
00:20:22.805 --> 00:20:26.788
It becomes very difficult to work full-time because you don't have the energy.
00:20:27.224 --> 00:20:28.551
You're not coping well.
00:20:28.805 --> 00:20:36.127
You may be experiencing multiple visits to the emergency room or hospitalizations depending how severe the condition is.
00:20:36.667 --> 00:20:39.414
Every time that happens you have to take time off of work.
00:20:39.865 --> 00:20:45.234
If you don't have a job that has a pretty liberal sick leave policy, you start to run into trouble there.
00:20:45.265 --> 00:20:47.515
A lot of times, people wind up losing their job.
00:20:47.755 --> 00:20:54.164
So even if they were managing to hold a job, that paid an okay wage, when things get bad enough, they can't work full time.
00:20:54.464 --> 00:20:59.025
They may lose that better job and then have to pick up something part-time that pays a lot less.
00:20:59.565 --> 00:21:02.625
And so now their economic situation just got worse.
00:21:03.015 --> 00:21:03.434
So.
00:21:03.701 --> 00:21:17.182
I'm just riffing on one possible set of conditions here, but you get the point that helping people understand how, when you have one serious problem, and you don't have a lot of support around you.
00:21:17.541 --> 00:21:25.711
You don't have the resources and fantastic health insurance that lets you go to any doctor anytime you want with no copays or hardly any copays.
00:21:25.951 --> 00:21:29.402
And you get to see really great high quality providers right away.
00:21:29.701 --> 00:21:32.505
There's never a wait, you get the treatment you need.
00:21:32.684 --> 00:21:37.035
And understand that most of the decision makers you're talking to, that's their reality.
00:21:37.904 --> 00:21:41.115
Their reality is that healthcare is easy to access.
00:21:41.714 --> 00:21:42.734
No problem.
00:21:43.335 --> 00:21:44.595
You just go to the doctor.
00:21:45.087 --> 00:21:49.035
You call up, you make an appointment, you go to the doctor, you get to see a high quality provider.
00:21:49.377 --> 00:21:50.607
Minimal wait time.
00:21:50.991 --> 00:21:51.951
They order tests.
00:21:52.192 --> 00:21:53.902
They give you prescriptions, they do whatever.
00:21:54.201 --> 00:21:55.102
And you don't think twice.
00:21:55.142 --> 00:21:59.461
You get the prescriptions filled, you go do the whatever follow-up appointments they suggest.
00:21:59.461 --> 00:22:01.592
.You're never worried about money in this process.
00:22:02.077 --> 00:22:06.855
Because either you have really outstanding health insurance that will cover the vast majority of it.
00:22:07.275 --> 00:22:13.902
And, or you have plenty of resources so that if there are out of pocket expenses, you might grumble about them, but you can pay them.
00:22:14.414 --> 00:22:17.894
It's not going to mean that you can't eat this week or that your kids can't eat this week.
00:22:18.612 --> 00:22:24.922
So always remembering that most decision makers are economically secure.
00:22:25.551 --> 00:22:30.922
And when you are economically secure all problems are a whole lot easier to solve.
00:22:31.942 --> 00:22:37.347
And they don't even realize that they're walking around with that framework in their head.
00:22:38.087 --> 00:22:48.795
And so when you describe a problem, it helps to link things for them and to say, here's how this gets so much more dicey, so much more unstable for the person.
00:22:49.335 --> 00:22:52.454
When they are also in economic distress.
00:22:53.115 --> 00:22:55.964
They don't have that great job with the great health insurance.
00:22:56.144 --> 00:22:57.765
Maybe they don't even have sick leave.
00:22:58.295 --> 00:23:00.964
They might have a job that doesn't offer sick leave.
00:23:01.805 --> 00:23:06.515
They may be working two or three part-time jobs, none of which offer sick leave, none of which offer health care.
00:23:06.664 --> 00:23:10.904
They've had to either get a plan through the marketplace, which is fine.
00:23:11.372 --> 00:23:14.961
Or they're accessing Medicaid if they are very minimally employed.
00:23:15.508 --> 00:23:27.813
But chances are they're not operating from the same problem solving tool menu that an economically secure and relatively well-placed individual would be approaching the same problem.
00:23:28.732 --> 00:23:40.752
So we have to also just understand that part of what we're doing always is helping decision makers to experience the problem through the eyes and the life experience of the people we help.
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:51.692
And to paint them a picture of not only what that individual's situation looks like and feels like, but also the ripple effects on their family, on their kids, on their partner.
00:23:52.083 --> 00:23:54.538
And then the knock on effects that has in the community.
00:23:54.769 --> 00:23:59.123
They're not able to be a fully participating member of the community and that has problems attached to it.
00:24:00.173 --> 00:24:05.722
There's so much rich material, and we've talked a lot about all of these core messaging concepts in many of the episodes.
00:24:05.722 --> 00:24:08.917
So So I don't want to go back through all of them in too much detail.
00:24:09.367 --> 00:24:27.061
But with each of them as you're crafting them, you're just thinking about, what are kind of the right wing themes that are pervading and that are wedge driving out there, that could cause the decision-maker to question whether this is really a problem.
00:24:27.211 --> 00:24:29.731
Whether your solution is the right solution.
00:24:30.152 --> 00:24:35.597
Whether the people you serve are worth being helped or whether they ought to do for themselves.
00:24:36.127 --> 00:24:40.424
You want to be helping them understand what is actually real.
00:24:41.221 --> 00:24:50.942
When we get to your unique solution to the problem, often what's unique about it is going to be that it is more client centered, more intensive, better tailored.
00:24:51.602 --> 00:24:53.612
And therefore gets better results.
00:24:54.115 --> 00:25:00.011
And as you know, your ace in the hole you always have is the impact of your unique solution.
00:25:00.295 --> 00:25:01.525
What results you get.
00:25:02.061 --> 00:25:09.104
I know that you already have all kinds of great messaging around all aspects of the impact of your work.
00:25:09.487 --> 00:25:12.717
How it has an impact on the individual who's been helped.
00:25:13.267 --> 00:25:14.227
On their family.
00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:15.670
On the community.
00:25:15.931 --> 00:25:18.080
And the return on investment for all of that.
00:25:18.653 --> 00:25:20.634
Your services might be very expensive.
00:25:21.057 --> 00:25:29.540
Typically the more expensive the services it's because they are tackling really deep, complicated problems that don't have simple solutions.
00:25:30.156 --> 00:25:38.351
And that is the other unfortunate sort of overarching theme with a lot of right-wing messaging is that, ah, none of it's that complicated.
00:25:38.797 --> 00:25:40.086
It's not that hard to solve.
00:25:40.086 --> 00:25:42.787
Just some sweeping decree would take care of most of it.
00:25:42.787 --> 00:25:45.606
We just need somebody strong enough to make that sweeping decree.
00:25:46.411 --> 00:25:54.294
And so as tempting as it is to say something snarky in response to that, what is valuable to simply go back to your core messaging.
00:25:54.503 --> 00:25:59.013
And to talk about why it is that the problem is complicated, what causes the complexity.
00:25:59.413 --> 00:26:02.601
How those complexities interrelate and manifest themselves.
00:26:02.993 --> 00:26:12.413
Which then leads to why your unique solution that addresses the problem in a unique and comprehensive way, is so effective at getting really powerful results.
00:26:12.864 --> 00:26:22.653
And that part of those powerful results are that the problem either goes away, or so substantially mitigated, that it's life-changing for the person you've helped.
00:26:23.104 --> 00:26:29.044
And they are now able to do things and contribute back in ways that wouldn't have been possible any other way.
00:26:29.770 --> 00:26:34.426
And it also means because their situation is improved they need less help now.
00:26:34.901 --> 00:26:41.550
And so if they hadn't experienced your unique solution, they might still be in the very expensive aspect of the problem.
00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:48.060
And because thankfully we do not live in a society that just says too bad, we won't help you.
00:26:48.606 --> 00:26:52.356
The reality is that we do have a social safety net, as flawed as it is.
00:26:52.717 --> 00:27:00.426
And so folks who are experiencing multilayered problems that are deeply complex tend to cost a lot to the system.
00:27:00.787 --> 00:27:01.747
To government.
00:27:01.777 --> 00:27:05.273
To however things are funded, they are expensive.
00:27:06.173 --> 00:27:09.384
And when we make their problems better, they are a lot less expensive.
00:27:09.681 --> 00:27:11.300
And that's good for society.
00:27:11.773 --> 00:27:17.683
It's also really good for the person and their family, because now they don't have the problem, or the problems not nearly as bad.
00:27:18.584 --> 00:27:28.763
So constantly bringing this back to humanity, but also being prepared to really talk about this is why solving this is so important.
00:27:29.284 --> 00:27:32.104
It's not just about the person, although that's very important.
00:27:32.493 --> 00:27:34.126
But it's also about society.
00:27:34.544 --> 00:27:36.213
And we have an impact in both arenas.
00:27:37.280 --> 00:27:47.696
So the key things to do are, first of all, to understand that this constant polarizing, wedge driving messaging has a purpose.
00:27:48.403 --> 00:27:52.092
That if we don't counter it, it may very well achieve its purpose.
00:27:52.426 --> 00:27:54.334
And that will be bad for everybody.
00:27:55.406 --> 00:27:58.557
As nonprofit leaders, we're in a unique position to counter it.
00:27:58.961 --> 00:28:02.590
And we're already very well equipped to do that counter messaging.
00:28:03.070 --> 00:28:05.411
We just have to be conscious about it.
00:28:06.131 --> 00:28:15.527
And just as we build all of our other advocacy messaging with strategy in mind, and we're thinking about those decision makers that are in our immediate world.
00:28:15.826 --> 00:28:27.453
.We're now factoring in one more, very important reality, which is that polarizing messaging has become so pervasive that it can't help but start to influence the decision makers in your world.
00:28:28.054 --> 00:28:29.910
And you don't want that to happen.
00:28:30.609 --> 00:28:39.452
You want to make sure that your messaging is helping those decision-makers see things clearly and through your eyes, about what is true.
00:28:40.029 --> 00:28:43.856
So that they can continue to support the critical work that you do.
00:28:44.313 --> 00:28:45.932
And to make the right decisions.
00:28:46.613 --> 00:28:47.452
Thanks for listening.
00:28:47.873 --> 00:28:51.292
And I'll see you in the next episode right here on the Nonprofit Power Podcast.
